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Continued Examination of
December 8, 1921
In the District Court of the United States For the Eastern District of Michigan Southern Division.
In the matter of Universal Book Stores, a Michigan Corporation, Bankrupt
In Bankruptcy. No. 4946.
Continuation of general examination of Albert Winslow Ryerson, at Detroit, Michigan, December 8th, 1921. Before George A. Marston, Referee.
Appearances: Same as on November 23, 1921.
Albert Winslow Ryerson, recalled for further examination by Mr. Morden, testifies as follows:
Q: On November 23, 1921, you were examined in this room?
A: Yes, I was here. I was here once before. I don't remember the date.
Q: Did you take a standard dictionary from the Universal Book Stores on or about the 10th day of May, A.D. 1921?
A: I did not.
Q: You testified, Mr. Ryerson, on the last examination, that for two desks that you took from the Universal Book Stores that you lent the corporation moneys for those desks. Is that true?
A: Yes, I continued to loan the corporation money until I could not stand the pressure any longer, and I instructed my bookkeeper to cancel the loan for the desks.
[ . . . ]
Q: Did you read the charter of your corporation—what you were in business for? What was the Universal Book Stores incorporated for? What was the purpose?
A: To sell books and stationary and kindred articles; publishing, etc.
Q: I will show you Exhibit 1 and ask you to read it.
A: "Buy and sell books and other merchandise," it says.
Q: "Buy and sell books and other merchandise." That was the purpose of the incorporation of the Universal Book Stores?
A: Yes.
Q: What is the O.T.O.
A: I don't know. I am informed—
Q: I don't care what you were informed. You don't know anything about it? Yes or no.
A: I know that it is a society of a semi-religious or occult order, with its headquarters in Europe, I believe.
Q: Did you have anything to do with that society in Detroit?
A: Nothing active. I was interested in what the—
Mr. Wasey: I desire to object to that question, unless it has something to do with the dealings with Mr. Ryerson or the Universal Book Stores.
Mr. Morden: This has, absolutely. It is nothing personal at all. I don't care what Mr. Ryerson believes, or anything like that.
A: The O.T.O. had nothing whatsoever to do with the Book Stores.
Q: Did you have anything to do with the establishment of the charter here in Detroit?
A: Of the O.T.O.?
Q: Yes?
A: I never knew they had a charter.
Q: Who was one of the head men of the O.T.O.?
Mr. Wasey: I object to that. I ask that we have a ruling on that question.
Mr. Morden: Well, I will get at it in another way. Who is Sylvester Crowley?
A: I don't know Sylvester Crowley. It is Aleister Crowley.
Q: Who is Aleister Crowley?
A: An Englishman; an author, writer and roamer around the country.
Q: Did he have anything to do with the O.T.O. to your knowledge?
A: I understand he was its founder and promoter.
Q: Did the Universal Book Stores have any dealings with Aleister Crowley?
A: We purchased some books from him.
Q: Anything else?
A: That is all. We made a contract with him for the purchase of books, but it was not consummated.
Q: How many books have you bought from Mr. Crowley?
A: I think originally we made a contract for—
Q: How much did you buy? I don't care what the contract is. How many books?
A: Well, I think the purchase amounted to around $1,500. We originally bought more, but we canceled a portion of the order.
Q: Who published the book?
A: It was published by the De Vinne Press in New York, but the title page was printed as the "Universal Publishing Company" to bring the mail orders to our store. We had an agency for the distribution. That was a nom de plume that we used.
Q: When were they published?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you enter into an agreement to pay for the books when they were published?
A: Well, we made some contract to pay for the books.
Q: Before they were published?
A: What is that?
Q: Did you enter into a contract to pay for the books before they were published? That is, the corporation?
A: Well I don't remember. We made some deal to pay for them under certain terms or certain contracts afterwards. I don't remember the details.
Q: Do you owe the Devinity Press for the books?
A: It is the De Vinne Press.
Q: The De Vinne Press?
A: No, we paid Aleister Crowley for the books. We don't owe the De Vinne Press anything at all.
Q: Well, do I understand that Aleister Crowley had the books printed and then sold them to you?
A: Yes.
Q: How many books did the corporation buy?
A: I think we contracted for 2,000 copies, and then canceled half or more of the order.
Q: You knew something about bookselling at that time, didn't you?
A: Well, it was a series of books.
Q: I am asking you if you knew something about the bookselling then?
A: About bookselling?
Q: Yes? What led you to purchase so many books from Aleister Crowley? An unknown book and an unknown society?
A: Because the preceding issues of the books had a very good sale, and the price was four dollars and something a copy in small amounts, but the 2,000 brought them down to $2.22 per copy: 50 percent discount. Mr. Jones [Charles Stansfeld Jones], our bookkeeper, was personally interested in the distribution of that kind of literature and had a distributing market all over the world. He represented to us that he could market the entire issue among his followers, and on the strength of that recommendation we took the amount to get the lowest price.
Q: How many did you take?
A: I think we took, in all, about 1,000 copies. We found that certain additional or auxiliary literature was necessary to be printed before the books could be marketed rapidly, and we did not feel as though we wanted to go to that $300 expense to get that out. But we were disappointed in the sale and what Mr. Jones said he could get for us. He claimed he could not do it without his auxiliary literature, and it made a sort of a disagreement, and we canceled a portion of the order.
Q: Do you know Mr. Crowley very well?
A: Not very well; by reputation, yes.
Q: Do you understand his philosophy?
Mr. Wasey: I object to that question.
Mr. Morded: That is very material, as they bought about $1,000 of books. I want to know these facts. Q: Do you recall the name of his book?
A: Equinox [Equinox Vol. III, No. 1].
Q: What was the sale price?
A: $6.66 was the odd figure that we set upon it. They used to sell for $10.00.
Q: How long was Mr. Crowley in Detroit to close this transaction?
A: Possibly three weeks or thirty days.
Q: His books have been published in the United States, to your knowledge?
A: You mean the preceding issues?
Q: Yes.
A: I think a subsequent issue was published. I don't remember. The preceding issues, a number of them had been published in England.
Q: But in the United States I am referring to. Have any subsequent ones in the United States been published?
A: I think there is one in a press in New York.
Q: Do you know the name?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Do you recall the year or month, about the time that you entered into the agreement with Mr. Crowley for the purchase of those books?
A: No, I do not. I have copies of the contract somewheres. I had it in my hands this morning, in fact, but I don't remember the year.
Q: Were you not, Mr. Ryerson, a booster for the publication?
A: No. It has resolved itself into a religious persecution.
Q: So that you were behind the book from beginning to end?
A: I was not behind this any more than I was behind the copyright of the United States Government. Q: Did you call a meeting of the board of directors to enter into the purchase of those books?
A: I don't remember. I don't think we ever called a meeting of the board of directors to enter into any purchase.
Q: At the time this contract for the purchase of this book was entered into, you owed a great many creditors, did you not?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Well, how was the financial situation in October, 1919.
A: We have always been more or less hard up.
Q: How did you pay Mr. Crowley?
A: Well, in notes. The corporation paid him in notes.
Q: Every note was paid to Mr. Crowley, was it not?
A: I think so.
Q: Can you explain why his claim was preferred above other claims that were due by you?
A: His claim was not preferred. We gave him notes. As they came due, I think he sold his notes to someone else.
Q: Well, you had many claims unpaid at that time, did you not?
A: I presume so.
Q: You never dishonored any of his notes?
A: I don't think so. I know I did pay partial payments on some of them.
Q: But other creditors waited while you paid Mr. Crowley?
A: Nor necessarily. We were conducting our business in a fair, straightforward way.
Q: Well, didn't you pay his notes in preference to other creditors?
A: Not necessarily, no.
Q: Well, you don't owe him any money now, do you?
A: No.
Q: But you owed many creditors at that time, did you not?
A: I don't remember. Our circumstances at that time were very much better than subsequently. We had no reason to consider that we were preferring anyone. We were paying our bills as well as could be expected.
Q: You said that Aleister Crowley transferred some of those notes, or all of them. How many? Do you know whether he transferred all of them, or just a few of them?
A: I think he sold $1,000 of them and turned the balance over to Mr. Jones for some compensation that they owed him.
Q: You paid Mr. Jones as these notes became due, did you not?
A: I don't remember. I think Mr. Jones still had a balance now.
Q: How much?
A: I don't remember. He did have. I don't remember whether it was afterwards settled or not. You will understand I have not been active in the building for some time.
Q: Well, you received a salary right along?
A: No, I did not receive a salary for a long time. I subsequently put in a claim for salary. There is $4,000 due me now; about that.
Q: Did you at any time, since the incorporation of this company—up to the time when legal proceedings were taken in the Circuit Court—have you at any time during that period not received your weekly salary of $59.
A: Absolutely. I have been suffering the tortures of the devil in that company. I put money in continually, and drew very little out.
Q: The records show where you put the money in?
A: Absolutely, yes: kept it alive through my personal efforts as well as I could. The people around me were appropriating assets instead of keeping the thing going.
Q: You have explained the B. A. Bruce [Bertha Bruce] is your present wife?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did she know Mr. Crowley?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether she had any business relations in reference to the purchase of this Equinox?
A: None whatever, except that she purchased some notes.
Q: She purchased the notes from Mr. Crowley?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you know how many she purchased?
A: About $1,000.
Q: They were all paid, were they not?
A: I think so.
Q: Mrs. Bruce did not suffer, buying any of those notes, did she?
A: I think this is entirely irrelevant. This simply singling out this party, isn't it? She received the money, after a long strained period, in dribs and drabs and installments.
Q: I show you exhibits, Mr. Ryerson, 1 to 8, 12/18/21. Just tell me what they are?
A: They are notes payable to Mr. Crowley, and I want to add, in this connection—
Q: Never mind, now. I am asking questions. You don't need to ask me any questions. I show you Exhibit Number 8 and ask you if that helps your memory as to when the contract was made out with Mr. Crowley?
A: Yes.
Q: This note is for $100, executed on October 18th, 1919, payable December 15th, 1919, for $100, to the order of Aleister Crowley, signature of the Universal Book Stores by A. W. Ryerson, Secretary. It shows this note as being paid. Do you know whose handwriting that is?
A: I think it is our bookkeeper's. I don't know.
Q: Do you know to whom that was paid?
A: Well, it was put through the bank. That might have been Mrs. Bruce's name.
Q: Paid by the Universal Book Stores?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Note, October 18, 1919, Exhibit 9, paid December 15, 1919, to the order of Aleister Crowley, by the Universal Book Store, the maker. Do you know whose handwriting that is?
A: I do not know. I presume it is Mrs. Bruce's.
Q: This one here?
A: Yes.
Q: That is her handwriting?
A: I think so, I don't know.
Q: Exhibit No. 9, paid by the Universal Book Stores. Exhibit 7, October 18, 1919: $100, payable on March 15, 1919, to Aleister Crowley; Universal Book Stores; Albert W. Ryerson, secretary. I show you this endorsement. Is that Mrs. Bruce's endorsement?
A: I think so.
Q: Would you know her signature when you see it?
A: Why, that looks like her handwriting.
Q: You would not swear that it is her handwriting?
A: I would not swear to anyone's handwriting unless I saw them sign it.
Q: Do you know whom that was paid to?
A: I presume that was paid to Mrs. Bruce; paid by the Universal Book Stores, March 15, 1920.
Q: Exhibit 6, October 18, 1919; maker, Universal Book Stores. I show you the endorsement there?
A: That is B. A. Bruce.
Q: It shows it was paid by the Universal Book Stores on February 16, 1920. Exhibit 5, October 18, 1919: note payable June 15, 1920 to the order of Aleister Crowley; maker, Universal Book Stores. Endorsed "B. Almira Bruce." Paid by the Universal Book Stores on the 15th of Jun, 1920. These are all $100 notes. We can offer them all in evidence at one time. I offer Exhibits 2, 4 and 3, showing each $100 notes, to and including October 18th, 1919, for $100 each, executed by the Universal Book Stores, showing payment of Exhibit 2 on May 17th, 1920. Exhibit 4, payment on September 18, 1920, Universal Book Stores. Exhibit 3 shows payment by the Universal Book Stores on April 15, 1920. Exhibit number 1, an executed note on October 18, payable November 15, 1920, for $80. It shows payment by the Universal Book Stores on December 16, 1920. The total is $980 on these. That is the total amount of notes. How did Mrs. Bruce come to meet Mr. Crowley?
A: We had a contract with him, involving an expenditure of $4,000 for the Book Stores. It was an obligation which worried us somewhat. He was questioning his claim, and we compromised on an adjustment for a certain amount of cash and a certain amount of notes which we agreed to use our best endeavors to cash for him. We were assured of that—We were assured by the First National Bank that we could discount those notes for him, but it appears, in talking to Mr. Nicholson down there, that they would handle our paper, but that they would not discount foreigners' papers. The understanding was that we were to be released from this $4,000 contract. We were to give her around $1,000. That is, to enable us to get this paper which we had given him discounted, and Mrs. Bruce had had the money and she bought those notes at I think around a discount of 10 per cent or something like that.
Q: At whose suggestion?
A: It was at my suggestion. I tried to get them discounted and sell them in a number of ways for him so as to give him the money.
Q: You saw that she was perfectly protected? When she purchased those notes, she got paid?
A: Well, the Book Stores was more protected than anyone else.
Q: Well, you saw that she was paid for them?
A: Well, not necessarily; not any more than anyone else. She put her notes through the bank, and they were paid in the regular order of business.
Q: As a matter of fact, did not Mrs. Bruce continually come to the Book Stores and see that there was a sufficient cash regularly paid to her?
A: No, that is not so. You have reference to another transaction which happened a year or so later. The Book Stores was in a perfectly solvent condition when these notes were given. This was an adjustment that saved the Book Stores a lot of money.
Q: Do your records show these different transactions that you claim to have happened?
A: Yes. We had a contract.
Q: Why didn't you have a contract for your other books?
A: The details of the business was conducted by other people. I was simply a figurehead.
Q: I will show you Exhibit 1, Mr. Ryerson. It is endorsed "S. [sic] Stansfeld Jones." How was that note paid?
A: I don't know.
Q: Well, look on the back. What does that mean? Does that writing mean anything to you?
A: Well, this is the first I have seen of it. This was apparently a partial payment made when the company was short of funds temporarily and could not be paid all at once.
Q: That was in what month?
A: From November 20, 1920, to December 16, 1920, apparently, isn't it?
Q: Yes. During that same period, you say, from the 20th of November to December 16, 1920, you were unable to pay that note to Mr. Jones, except by installments, due to a stringency of money, as is apparent from the endorsement on the back of the note; while, during that same period of stringency you were able to pay Mrs. Bruce on the notes? I show you Exhibit 8, showing a payment January 15th.
A: I don't think there is any necessity—
Q: I want you to answer that question. You were able to pay the note?
A: Well, this note was paid and several other things were paid.
Q: Well, that is all right. December 17th, 1919, there was no stringency when it came to Mrs. Bruce, was there?
A: They were third party notes: a regular, legitimate business and no business to be singled out by any criticism, because there need be no criticism on a thing of that kind. It is a perfectly legitimate, straightforward transaction, for the benefit of the company.
Q: How much, in toto, did you pay Aleister Crowley?
A: I don't remember.
Q: How many books did you sell?
A: I don't remember that.
Q: How much did you lose on the transaction?
A: I don't think we have lost anything on the transaction. We have the merchandise on hand, seven or eight hundred volumes. Or did have it, the last I knew of it.
Q: Do you know where they can sell any of them?
A: They can be marketed by Mr. Jones, who has a clientele for them.
Q: Have you ever tried to get Mr. Jones to market them?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: When did you attempt to get Mr. Jones to market these books?
A: Well, since he has left the employ of the store. He is following literary lines and bookkeeping lines.
Q: What year?
A: I think it was the early part of this year. Perhaps six or eight months ago.
Q: Mr. Jones says he has a market for those books?
A: At that time, he sent someone over there for some of the books, and I understood that he was not able to make any deal with the party in charge of the store at the time.
Q: Where is Mr. Jones?
A: Three months ago. I heard from him from Chicago. I don't know where he is. I hear recently hat he had gone to Cleveland, although I am not sure.
Q: Mr. Jones is very much interested in this Equinox, is he not?
A: He is more or less interested in the philosophy expounded in that particular book.
Q: Is that a picture of Mr. Jones?
A: Yes.
[ . . . ]
Mr. Wasey: Mr. Ryerson, you wanted to say something when Mr. Morden was asking you about those Crowley notes. What was it?
A: Yes. It is a perfectly legitimate transaction made in the general routine of the business: notes purchased by an outside party for the benefit of the company entirely. The man went away satisfied because he was broke and had to have the money, and we scouted and got it the best way we could, and were glad to get rid of the volume—
Q: The outside party is your wife?
A: Yes.
Q: Was she your wife at that time?
A: No, she was not my wife at that time.
Continued to December 16th [23 December 1921] at 2:00 p.m.
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