|
Testimony of William Gibson and Gordon W. Hill
December 30, 1921
In the District Court of the United States For the Eastern District of Michigan Southern Division.
In the matter of Universal Book Stores, Bankrupt
In Bankruptcy. No. 4946.
Testimony taken before George A. Marston, Referee, at Detroit, Michigan, December 30, 1921.
Appearances: Same as at previous hearings.
William Gibson, being duly sworn, testifies as follows:
Examined by Mr. Morden.
Q: What is your full name?
A: William A. Gibson.
Q: Where do you live?
A: 1137 Hancock West.
Q: What is your occupation?
A: My present occupation? I am personnel manager of the Whitehead & Kales Company.
Q: Were you an officer and stockholder of the Universal Book Stores in 1918?
A: Yes, I was elected as an officer.
Q: How much stock did you purchase?
A: $500.
Q: Did you pay that money in?
A: Yes, sir, in cash.
Q: Do you remember in what month you purchased the stock?
A: I think I started in there on the 7th of August, 1918.
Q: When were you elected an officer, if you recall?
A: Well, shortly after that. I can't remember the day and the date.
Q: To what office were you elected?
A: Treasurer.
Q: In August 1918, did you go with Mr. Ryerson [Albert W. Ryerson] to Cleveland?
A: I think it was in August. Yes, sir.
Q: Whom did you meet in Cleveland?
A: Harry Walker.
Q: Did you have a talk with Mr. Walker concerning the purchase of stock?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did Mr. Walker purchase stock in the Universal Book Stores.
A: At that time, he signified a willingness to take it; yes, sir.
Q: When did he buy the stock?
A: I think it was a few days afterwards that he turned over a check for $5,000 for that amount of stock, but he did not do it at the time. I know that he bought the stock, though.
Q: What representations were made to Mr. Walker by you, in Mr. Ryerson's presence, concerning the purchase of stock as to a possibility of a return of the money?
A: Well, it was put up to him in very glowing terms. Mr. Ryerson did nearly all of the talking, and I said some things at the end of the conversation. After he had assented to the purchase of the stock, he turned to me and asked how much I wanted. I told him that if I could get $5,000, we thought we could make a go of it.
Q: Are you a bookman, Mr. Gibson?
A: Well, that just depends on what you mean.
Q: Well, are you acquainted with rare books?
A: I am, yes, sir. I am not an expert, but I have a good knowledge of rare books.
Q: As a general class, or as a special class?
A: Well, I think as a general class.
Q: After you talked to Mr. Walker in Cleveland, did you return to Detroit with Mr. Ryerson?
A: I can't recall whether we came back that night. I think we did. I think we came back on that evening boat.
Q: Do you recall about what time you and Mr. Ryerson went east?
A: About the 21st day of August, I think. It was just after getting the check; sometime shortly after getting the check.
Q: What was the purpose of your going east with Mr. Ryerson?
A: Well, I don't know what the purpose was, other than to—It was put up to me in this way: I objected to going. I did not want to go. I told Mr. Ryerson very frankly I did not want to go, because I did not see any necessity for my going, and I also talked to Doctor Hill and told him I did not want to go; that I could not see any reason for it, and Doctor Hill agreed with me, that he could not see any reason for my going and that is was a useless expenditure of money. Mr. Ryerson insisted that I go, because he felt that I, being an engineer and acquainted with technical books, and—as he put it—being well-known among the people in Detroit, that it would add to the prestige of the two of us getting books. That is as well as I can remember the way it was put to me.
Q: You did go with Mr. Ryerson?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: What cities did you visit?
A: Well, the first city we landed in—that is, to do any business at all—was Holyoke. We stopped at Springfield and went down to Holyoke, Massachusetts. From there, we went to Boston. Our buying trip temporarily stopped there, and the balance of the trip until we reached some city on Long Island Sound, between New York and Wood's Holl—Fall River, I think it was. Before reaching Fall River, we took in some side trips. We went to Gloucester, Massachusetts, and then we went down to Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket and looked at a lot, on which there was some question as to the value or the taxes. I don't remember which. We came back from there to Wood's Holl and went to Fall River, Massachusetts, started on a buying trip again and from there we went to New York City. From New York City, we went to Philadelphia, bought some books there, and from Philadelphia to Baltimore. Right there, I objected to going any further. We ran out of money. He was quite persistent, and I told him if he went any farther he would have to go alone, so I borrowed some money and when he found I was determined to go home, he decided he would go home with me. That was the first trip.
Q: How long did it take to cover these various cities?
A: One month.
Q: One month?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you mention to Mr. Ryerson that, if he would go to Baltimore, that you would be able to sell $7,000 worth of stock to a sister-in-law?
A: No, sir; not at that time. I did not even say that if he would go to Baltimore, I would get $7,000 for stock. I never made such a statement.
Q: Did you call on your sister-in-law when you went to Baltimore?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you try to interest her in the stock?
A: Not at that time, no, sir. It would not be a very good thing to try to interest her in $7,000 worth of stock when we had no money to get back home on.
Q: You know something about the property that Mr. Ryerson had at Woburn, Massachusetts?
A: I don't know the name of it. It is a suburb near the city of Boston.
Q: Is that an acre of land with a frame house on it?
A: It was a parcel of land, which was larger than the ordinary lot. I can't recall now how large it was. It was possibly four or five ordinary lots in area.
Q: Do you recall the condition of the house when you were there?
A: I do, very vividly.
Q: What condition was the house in?
A: Well, it was at that time about as dilapidated as could be. I would not stable a horse in it.
Q: Were there tenants in the house?
A: Yes, sir. They were complaining about its condition and that is why we went there.
Q: Did you go with Mr. Ryerson in the house?
A: Yes, sir. I went through it. I did not go upstairs. I don't think I did, but I remember going into the first floor. Q: Do you recall any conversation of Mr. Ryerson and the tenants on the question of rent? The amount of rent they were paying?
A: I do not recall that, no, sir.
Q: Did Mr. Ryerson tell you they had not been paying rent?
A: No, I do not recall any such statement.
Q: When you were in New York on this trip, did you meet Aleister Crowley?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How did you come to meet him?
A: Well, Mr. Ryerson was very anxious to reach him and I, of course, was with him. Mr. Crowley could not be reached directly. We went to the place where we had heard that he had lived last, and the people apparently knew him but would not tell us, and after going upstairs and down several times we finally got back to the janitor, and Mr. Ryerson finally got out of him that if we would go to a certain place where Mr. Crowley came for his lunch, which was a French hotel, that we might possibly get in contact with him there. We did go there, and Mr. Ryerson left a note. We went back to out hotel and some time later—probably a day or two— we received a letter, or the clerk handed it to Mr. Ryerson, stating that—I don't remember the exact words of the letter, but stating that if Mr. Ryerson would see the go-between that this go-between would determine whether Mr. Ryerson could see Aleister Crowley. Finally, Mr. Jones [Charles Stansfeld Jones] came in—
Q: Pardon me, is that Mr. C. Stansfeld Jones?
A: Yes, sir. Then finally, after talking with Mr. Ryerson and he felt that everything was all right, he took us downtown to a room where Mr. Crowley lived, and there we saw Mr. Crowley.
Q: Did you enter into the conversation with Mr. Crowley?
A: No, sir, I did not. I may have interjected a remark occasionally, to something that was said. I probably talked two or three minutes with Mr. Jones.
Q: Were you present when Mr. Ryerson talked with Mr. Crowley?
A: Yes, sir. I was there during the whole conversation.
Q: Was there any conversation in reference to the purchase of books or the publishing of a book?
A: There was some conversation about The Equinox [Equinox Vol. III, No. 1], and some small books were given to Mr. Ryerson with a big "4," [either Book 4 Part 1 or Book 4 Part 2] or had the figure "4" on them. I do not remember the nature of the books, but there was no business transaction at that time.
Q: How long did you stay on this first visit with Mr. Crowley?
A: Oh, I should say an hour or an hour and a half. Something like that.
Q: You spoke of the difficulty of reaching Mr. Crowley. Do you know why that was?
A: I know what was told me by the janitor, and I know what was told me by Mr. Ryerson, and the attitude and movements of Mr. Crowley and Mr. Jones rather bore it out, so I began to believe it was a fact. Q: What did Mr. Ryerson tell you?
A: That he was under police surveillance: he could not go out in the open because of the police.
Q: Do you know the reason for that?
A: No, sir, I don't know the reason. All I had was my—
Q: Well, did Mr. Ryerson tell you a reason? Or Mr. Jones or Mr. Crowley?
A: No, sir. Mr. Ryerson and I talked very much, but I don't remember what he did tell me about that particular feature of it. I know that in his work he had gotten into contact with the police department, and he had to go into hiding.
Q: Did Mr. Crowley or Mr. Jones or Mr. Ryerson say that there were other publications of The Equinox in this country?
A: Well, I don't recall "in this country," but I do recall that they were here, because Mr. Ryerson told me that they were, and when we went down to Dayton on our second trip, we stopped in to see a secondhand bookman and he had some copies of them.
Q: How long had Mr. Crowley been over from England, do you know?
A: I don't know, but apparently, from his talk, a very short time. I don't know that.
Q: Well, when did you go on this second trip that you speak of?
A: Well, that second trip was intended as a continuation of the first trip, but I objected. I told him that we would go down to Cincinnati for the purpose that we had intended going down there, after we got back from Detroit. I think it was about two weeks afterwards that we left for Louisville. I said Cincinnati. I meant Louisville.
Q: Did you see Aleister Crowley the second time you were in New York?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How many times did you see him there?
A: I know two, and possibly three, times. I am not sure about the second statement.
Q: Was he at the same place?
A: No, sir.
Q: A different place in New York?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Where did you meet him the second time?
A: Why, Mr. Ryerson planned a dinner at the hotel. We met him there. It was Sunday.
Q: Did you spend the evening together?
A: The four of us were together; yes, sir.
Q: Stansfeld Jones and Mr. Ryerson?
A: Yes, sire. He was present.
Q: What was the conversation that evening?
A: Well, the question of The Equinox was discussed and the desire of Mr. Ryerson to bring it over to this country. Mr. Crowley had stated that his books were tied up with the publisher in England because of the fact that he did not have enough money to release them, and Mr. Ryerson stated that he would arrange, through his company, to get them over here and sell them. At that dinner, the matter was discussed and I think it was the third visit—a matter of which I am not positive, but I do know that it was in the first hotel that we went to see Mr. Crowley—that the agreement was drawn up and signed.
Q: Did you sign the agreement?
A: No, sir. I objected to it.
Q: Were the contents of The Equinox explained to you?
A: I had never seen The Equinox and knew nothing about it at all, excepting what I had heard about it.
Q: You were an officer of the corporation. Did you stand idly by?
A: I did not stand idly by. I can't prevent a man from putting on his signature, or making an agreement, if he wants to do it.
Q: Do you know what the contents of that agreement were?
A: Just in a general way. Just in a general way.
Q: Have you seen the agreement since that time?
A: No, sir, I have not.
Q: On your third visit to Aleister Crowley, where did you go?
A: That was in this hotel where the four of us had the dinner.
Q: How long did that last? The meeting?
A: Well probably an hour, and hour and a half or two hours.
Q: C. Stansfeld Jones: did he seem well-acquainted with The Equinox and its contents?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did he explain it all to you?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did anyone explain The Equinox to you?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did anyone explain the philosophy to you of Aleister Crowley?
A: No, sir. The man's whole personality was repugnant to me; consequently, I did not endeavor in any way at all to get any explanation concerning Crowley or his philosophy, or anything else about him.
Q: You just went to these dinners as a sort of a disinterested third party?
A: I went because I started out with Mr. Ryerson, and I had to finish with him. My whole trip was disgusting. I wanted to get back as quickly as I could, and persuade him to get back.
Q: What was the cause of the irritation between you and Mr. Ryerson on this trip?
A: Well, I don't just know how to answer that question, and yet I do know.
Q: Well, let us have an answer.
A: Well, one thing: we started out to buy books and stock up the store. That did not seem to be the prime motive when we got on the road. Every place we went to buy books, we found that there was a large indebtedness against the store. It was a continual payout. All we had was $5,000. I got disgusted with the debts in the first place, and his persistent chasing after Crowley to find him, a man who was under a cloud; a man that knew nothing about the tying up of that amount and in spending the money in a manner which, to my mind, would not have been good business policy. Now that is about as general as I can make it.
Q: Who had control over the money?
A: Well, I suppose nominally I did, but that is about all I can say.
Q: Did you issue the checks on the road?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And when you returned, how much of that $5,000 was spent on that trip? I don't mean expenses, but I mean the total?
A: I think it was nearly all gone, as well as I can recall.
Q: All this money that you spent, in either payment of books, legitimate traveling expenses, etc.: you issued a check for, did you?
A: Yes, excepting the little that we started out with. We had this ready cash to start out with.
Q: Do you know whether Mr. Ryerson paid Aleister Crowley any money on that trip?
A: I never saw him pay any money at all.
Q: If he had paid any money, you would have known it?
A: I think I would. Yes, sir.
Q: Do you recollect any of the book companies that you purchased books of, and the amounts?
A: You mean the amount of money, the value of the purchases we made?
Q: Yes.
A: Well, some of them were pretty heavy, I guess. I don't know how much they were. I suppose they ran all the way from $10 up to several hundred dollars. I recall one book index that we paid $250 for. I recall that.
Q: Is it true that you spent the money for traveling expenses yourself out of the fund of the corporation? That is, that you took entire control of the funds?
A: You mean that I did that?
Q: Yes.
A: No, no. I was not the guiding spirit on the trip. I paid the bills for that trip.
Q: Did you handle all the cash and keep all the records?
A: No.
Q: Who did that?
A: Mrs. Lumley did.
Q: I mean on this trip?
A: Yes, I paid out the money, but Mr. Ryerson took his when he wanted it. I paid it over to him, or gave it to him.
Q: Did you keep any records of that trip?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Where is the record?
A: I think it is partially destroyed now, because after he gave me a clean bill of health, I had no further use for it. I destroyed everything I had along that line.
Q: Did you turn that over to Mr. Ryerson?
A: No, sir; not the expenses of the trip.
Q: Did he demand of you several times an itemized statement of the cost of this trip?
A: Bo, sir. He came to my house once and I ordered him out of the house.
Q: When you went on this trip—on the second trip you went—did you go to Cincinnati?
A: We went from Detroit to Cincinnati. Yes, sir.
Q: And did you purchase Doctor Buck's library in Cincinnati?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Have you an itemized statement of Doctor Buck's library? A list of books?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Have you any of those books in your possession?
A: I have one book that I bought, yes, sir. That is, that was purchased since I left the store.
Q: Is it true that in November, or subsequent to November 1918, that you entered the mail-order book business? A: No, sir.
Q: Is it true that you had taken out numbers of books from the Book Stores and taken them home and stocked a library?
A: No sir. My library is open to anyone who wants to inspect it.
Q: Have you that list with you?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you recall going through Doctor Buck's library in Cincinnati and examining the books?
A: Some of them, yes, sir.
Q: Were most of the books—Did most of the books have Doctor Buck's name written in them?
A: The majority of them did, yes. It seemed to be his policy to put his name in them. The one I have has his name in it.
Q: In his own handwriting?
A: Yes, sir.
[ . . . ]
[Cross Examination by Mr. Wasey]
Q: When you day you saw Mr. Crowley, who was there besides yourself and Mr. Ryerson.
A: There were two ladies there, and Mr. Jones.
Q: Do you know who the ladies were?
A: No, sir, excepting as I was introduced to them. I understood that one of them was a French woman and the other was an English woman.
Q: Do you know that she was the wife of the British vice consul, the English woman.
A: I understood it, but I had my doubts.
Q: Did you see this book with the big "4" on it at all?
A: No, sir.
Q: You never looked into that at all?
A: I had only recently, but I did not know it then.
Q: What was the nature of the agreement Mr. Ryerson made with Mr. Crowley at that time?
A: All that I remember was that Mr. Crowley was to be given I think $1,000. That would enable him to release the books; that the books were to be brought over here and sent to Detroit; and that all expenses were to be paid by the Universal Book Stores, and the Universal Book Stores would sell them. I think at least $7,000 was to be paid before the agreement would be settled.
Q: Now did you draw a check for that $1,000?
A: No, sir.
Q: Was the $1,000 paid?
A: I can't tell you that. I don't know.
Q: Well, you never drew a check for that?
A: No, sir. Not to my knowledge.
Q: Did the books ever come over here?
A: I don't know. They must be here. There is one of them down there on the table.
Q: These are books that have been published in England that you are talking about?
A: That is the books, yes.
Q: They were supposed to be in England at the time you were talking?
A: Yes. They were not completed: the books were all printed but never bound and the publisher would not do anything more; that they were not interested at all until they received their money, neither would they release them.
Q: That did not look like a good deal to you?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did the other purchases you made on the road look like good deals?
A: No, sir.
Q: How many books did you buy on that trip?
A: I don't know. I should judge—I think—Well, at a guess, I would say we bought seven or eight thousand dollars' worth of books from publishers. That had nothing to do with the occult books we bought. I am speaking directly of bona fide books.
Q: Did you purchase occult books?
A: Yes, sir. A great stock of them. They were purchased from book collectors.
Q: Are you familiar with that type of literature at all?
A: Yes.
Q: You were somewhat of a judge of that type of books, were you?
A: What do you mean by "judge"? I want to find out what you mean before I answer it.
Q: Well, do you know whether they were well-written books or not? Were you familiar, I might say, with the leading books in the field?
A: Do you mean if I know an occult book when I see it?
Q: No, are you familiar with the leading books concerning books dealing with occult subjects?
A: That is a pretty broad question. I could not answer that.
Q: What is your judgement of an occult book?
A: I know an occult book when I see it. I think I could identify an occult book from a faker.
Q: Have you familiarized yourself with occult books outside of your connection with the Universal Book Stores?
A: For my own use, I have.
Q: Have you dealt in books yourself?
A: I have bought them for my own use.
Q: But you have not sold them again? You have not been in the business?
A: No, sir.
Q: Does your wife run a book business?
A: No, sir.
Q: Have you any connection with the Hahn Book Company?
A: Yes, sir. I was the organizer of it.
Q: Was that before or after you left the Universal Book Stores?
A: That was in 1913.
Q: Was the company out of existence when you went in the Universal Book Stores?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Well, have you done any business under the name of the Hahn Book Company since you left the Universal Book Stores?
A: No, sir.
Q: Has your wife done any business under that name?
A: No, sir.
Q: Who is running the business now?
A: There is no such business.
Q: How long ago did they go out of existence?
A: It has not been in existence at all.
Q: The Hahn Book Company?
A: Never, since I told you not since 1913. I wrote a technical book. I could not get anyone to publish it because I did not have enough money to pay the publishers the price they wanted. The only way I could have done—The only way I could dispose of it was to organize this company and to sell until I published it myself and sold it.
Q: That is the only business you have done, or the Hahn Book Company? They did not deal in books generally?
A: Well, we used the literature. That is all, because we did not want to throw it away.
Q: How did you happen to take a catalogue of that collection bought in Cincinnati?
A: Well, it was given to me by Doctor Buck's son and I brought it home. It was simply a typewritten list of the books that were sold to the Universal Book Stores.
Q: It was not part of a library?
A: No.
Q: Did you have duplicate copies of that list?
A: No, that was the only list that was given to me.
Q: You were treasurer of the Universal Book Stores at that time?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And you kept that list?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: As a matter of fact, the books would be rather difficult to handle and sell them unless you had a list of what you bought?
A: I don't think so. It would not have been for me.
[ . . . ]
[Redirect examination by Mr. Morden:]
Q: Is there any other reason than you have stated why you and Mr. Ryerson did not come together and operate this business successfully on this trip to New York? In these three visits to Aleister Crowley, was there anything turned up at those meetings that made you want to quit the association with the Universal Book Stores?
A: Well, that transaction in itself was a big reason. That transaction with Mr. Crowley, the continual running after Mr. Crowley and toadying to him disgusted me. I did not look upon Mr. Crowley as a god or anything superhuman, and his whole attitude and dress and manner and conversation disgusted me, and after the transaction we had, I felt that we were loading ourselves with obligations with something we should not have done. We got into argument after argument on the road about it, and those two things, of course, aside from not pursuing the object we started out for as a whole, and sticking to it, discouraged me and disgusted me.
Q: Were there any other women present, except on this one visit to Crowley?
A: Any other women?
Q: Yes. You say there were two women present. On the other two visits, were there women present?
A: At the dinner we had in this hotel; that is, when the agreement was arranged for, there was one woman present: an English woman.
Q: Where was her home?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you recall her name?
A: No, sir, I do not.
Q: What hotel did you say this was in?
A: It was a French hotel. I don't know the name of it. I have forgotten. It was a regular hotel and it was patronized by French people, because French was spoken there in preference to English. It was down in the lower part of New York. I don't know whether it was on Broadway or on Fifth Avenue.
Q: Did Mr. Crowley discuss, in your presence, who he was and what he stood for?
A: Yes, he discussed the occult generally—occult philosophy and his working in it, his principles and similar things.
Q: Did he discuss his organization, the O.T.O.?
A: I do not recall any mention of the O.T.O.
Q: Well, did he discuss what he intended to publish, or have Mr. Ryerson publish?
A: Yes, he discussed the book and what his plans were for it, if he could get it over to this country. It seemed to be his aim to get it over here and release it from the publisher.
Q: Well then, if he discussed it in your presence, you must have known that it was the official organ of the O.T.O.? A: I cannot recall any statements regarding his being any official organ of the O.T.O. I know that book was discussed very thoroughly. There seemed to be a desire to originate a movement in this country. Mr. Ryerson was very desirous that it would originate in Detroit; that this would be a center for it. He said he was willing to go any length, almost, to get it here.
Q: Have you read this Equinox?
A: I looked through it, and read some portion of it.
Q: Is it an occult book?
A: Yes, I would say it was. The last part of it is Madame Blavatsky's [Helena Petrovna Blavatsky] Voice of the Silence.
Q: Are there portions of the book that are not occult?
A: No, from what I have seen, I would not think so.
Q: What I am driving at is this, Mr. Gibson: Did you recommend the publishing of this book for the purchaser?
A: No, sir. I was strenuously opposed to it.
Q: For what reason?
A: I had not seen the book. I had simply heard about it, and my prime reason for objecting to it was that we could not afford it and we had no business to publish it. We had no business to enter into any transactions with Aleister Crowley to get that book over here. It was too much of a burden to undertake, for an organization starting out with $5,000.
Q: Was there any other reason, save financial reasons, why you would not recommend that book?
A: Well, Mr. Aleister Crowley alone would be a sufficient reason for me. He claimed it was his work. That was enough for me.
Q: When did you see the book?
A: The first I saw of the book has been recently; within the last year or two, I would say. I don't know just how long.
Q: You have testified that you would know an occult book when you saw one?
A: Yes.
Q: Is The Equinox, Volume 3, Number 1, a good occult book? A salable occult book?
A: No, sir. It has a very limited sale.
Q: Why?
A: Well, for this reason, for no other reason, that if anyone who knew anything about occultism were to pick it up, that the pictures alone in it would disgust them, if not frighten them. Anyone reading it—some of the statements in there would frighten them away from the book. I think that is enough.
Q: You say you worked for the Universal Book Stores for a period of seven weeks?
A: I worked for the Universal Book Stores; was connected with them from the 7th day of August, I believe, until the 7th or 9th of November. I don't know just how many weeks that is. If that is seven weeks, I would say yes. The records show here and the checks are in evidence.
Q: During that period, you and your wife have withdrawn the sum of $870. You originally put $500 in?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Making the total stock in your possession $1,500.00?
A: Yes, sir.
Mr. Wasey: That is all.
Doctor Gordon W. Hill, being duly sworn, testifies as follows:
Examined by Mr. Morden.
Q: What is your full name?
A: Gordon W. Hill.
Q: What is your profession?
A: I am a dental surgeon.
Q: Where are your offices?
A: 561-563 David Whitney Building.
Q: were you one of the organizers of the Universal Book Stores?
A: I was one of the original members of the Universal Book Stores Company. Whether any organization was perfected or attempted before my joining, I do not know.
Q: The records show that you purchased $1,000 worth of stock?
A: I did.
Q: Was that stock paid for?
A: It was paid for.
Q: Have you a receipt for it?
A: I have my stock receipt—my stock certificate, I would say.
Q: Have you any canceled checks or receipt, other than that?
A: Yes, there are checks, I believe, somewhere; checks that I issued in payment of stock.
Q: Have you these checks with you today?
A: I have no checks with me today, sir.
Q: And was this $1,000 of stock paid for all at once?
A: I will have to explain the situation to you this way: possibly we can clarify by going at it in this method, if you will permit me.
Q: Surely.
A: I was interested, and have been for many years, in books, although I am not an expert bookman and my knowledge of books possibly was limited; but I have been a reader of all good books, I believe, to try to improve my intellectual condition as much as possible by reading those books. I am a Mason. One day at the Masonic Temple, Mr. A. W. Ryerson was talking to some men, and I heard someone mention the fact that he had a very fine library and many prominent men visited his home to get information on certain subjects from this library. Naturally, being interested in those books, I was interested and later on I was introduced to him. He told me that he was launching an enterprise to buy an institution or company or whatnot, to purchase and sell books. I naturally became interested in the mention of the books. Later on in the conversation, he said he had purchased a store and would like to have some men associated with him: men that he loved and could trust, associated with him in the book business. He told me that a member of our organization—at least a member of the Masonic fraternity, Reverend Hugh Jack—was about to become a member of the organization he was perfecting. I told him I did not have the money to invest, but I would be possibly interested, and then I met him at a later date and we talked the matter over and I decided that if he could use paper at that time, I would be interested possibly to the extent of $1,000. I thought it would give me an opportunity to browse around the bookstore and get books for my library I was starting at that time. I told Mr. Ryerson I had not the necessary cash. He said, well, he had some cash on hand at the time. He loaned me $500. I may be wrong in this detail, but as to generalities, that is right. He said, "We are going to incorporate." He gave me $500, which I placed in the account and later on I issued a check in payment of this for $1,000. I believe it was—I can't remember the details—it is quite some little time—for the payment of the stock. Now, if there is any other little detail in connection with that, if you will refresh my mind at this time, I can give it to you.
Q: Did you ever pay for the $1,000 worth of stock you subscribed for?
A: Yes, sir. I understood it was paid through one of the banks, through the Central Savings Bank or the Commonwealth Federal Bank, I believe. Mr. Ryerson can tell you.
Mr. Ryerson: Central Savings Bank.
Q: You were secretary or treasurer?
A: No, sir. When the organization was perfected there were three or four of us present and matters were discussed. I said I was about to purchase a $1,000 interest in this institution and the Reverend Hugh Jack the same. I believe we were at the Elks' Temple at an organization meeting, and there was an attorney, I believe, and three or four others were at luncheon there; at that time, or a subsequent date, articles of incorporation were spoken of. I was tentatively elected or nominated president of the institution.
Q: And you were incorporated, and the corporation entered into an agreement with Mr. Ryerson to purchase the book store at 131 Grand River? Do you recall that?
A: Well, that was the institution. Mr. Ryerson had purchased the old store from a Mr. Adair, who was conducting a secondhand and new book business there.
Q: And what was the condition of that bookstore?
A: Well, I could say quite a well-kept store. We all know secondhand bookstores with old books that are more or less worn: the very atmosphere would show that.
Q: Did you meet Aleister Crowley when he came here for the first time?
A: Well, I don't know whether it was the first time or not; the second time or what time, but I do know this: I did meet him, yes. It was some time—I don't know when it was, but I know that one day I entered the Book Store and Mrs. Ryerson, who was managing the store, pointed out a gentleman who was reading a book. He was standing before a certain number of books and was reading one and she said to me—she made a motion to me and pointed and I did not understand it at the time. I went over to the desk and she said, "There is Mr. Crowley" or "There he is" or something of that sort.
Q: Did you meet him afterwards?
A: I did.
Q: How many times?
A: Well, the meetings were all—I would say almost all by accident. I don't believe, in all my meetings with Aleister Crowley, I talked with him more than five minutes because, from the very first sight of the man, he became repugnant and I do not like that type of individual. I disliked him.
Q: Did you know that the Universal Book Stores had entered into a contract with Aleister Crowley for the purchase of 2,000 volumes of The Equinox.
A: Mr. Ryerson never informed me as to the purchase of them. I do know that the Universal Book Stores entered into a contract with Aleister Crowley for a certain number of volumes, but as to specifically state, I could not tell you.
Q: Did you ever see a manuscript of that?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see a volume of The Equinox?
A: Yes; there were three or four books came into the store. I paid very little attention to them, because I had no interest in it. I had no interest in it, other than for a merchandising proposition.
Q: Did you examine one?
A: No, not at that time.
Q: When did you examine one?
A: I cannot say the exact date, but Mrs. Ryerson had called my attention to the fact that they were going to put a display of The Equinox in the window. I casually picked up one and looked at it. It was a very good-looking volume from the outside. I can't remember what the conversation was, regarding the book, but later on my attention was called to a picture [May Morn] which appears near the first or second page. I was interested in that, and that is my knowledge of The Equinox.
Q: Did you make any further examination of the book?
A: Not to my knowledge. I can't remember of ever reading a word of The Equinox. I had no occasion to.
Q: Did you not, Doctor Hill, take one home, and after discovering the latter part of the book—
A: I will explain that to you. Once someone said to me, "Take home a volume of it." These books were all wrapped in a piece of paper, bound and sealed, as all books came into the store, to keep them clean. I took it home; threw it on top of the book case. I never thought of the book any more, until one time when the little boy, four or five years of age, was up on a chair. We had some company. This little lad pulled this book from the bookcase and wanted to know what was in this package. He did open it. A friend of my wife's was visiting that evening, and someone opened up the book. They made some comment upon this picture on the front page. Then this lady said, "Isn't that a funny picture?" I had the book in my hand. She pulled it out and she wanted to show the people there just what it was. Well then, that was the time that I had my attention called particularly to this picture in the book. I thought it was a vague sort of a satirical picture of some sort. Later on, when I began to get under the skin, I made inquiries of what it meant.
Q: Did you destroy the volume?
A: Yes, sir. I think it was destroyed.
Q: Did you at any time, Doctor Hill, sponsor the publication of The Equinox by the Universal Book Stores?
A: Yes, I did. Yes, sir. I was president of the company. The general management of the company was in the hands of A. W. Ryerson, who was elected to do certain work. His work included the buying of the books. The only place where I functioned was to go in as president of the company at the monthly meetings. I presided at the meetings.
Q: Well, as a matter of fact, did not you, on January 5th, resign because of the publication of this book? Just answer yes or no?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: A discussion came up concerning this book, and what did you say?
A: Let me qualify that just a little, if you please. There was talk of financing the institution. It was a going concern, and a moneymaking concern; an interesting proposition for anyone. We decided to call a meeting; a sort of an impromptu meeting. It was convenient for everyone to be there on Sunday afternoon. We went into the store. We discussed some matters; this book was mentioned. I opened the book and, in conversation with someone, I mentioned this satirical print or lithograph on the first page of the book. In my opinion, that was objectionable to me. In fact, it was repugnant because it really conflicted with my feelings, as any Christian man would feel. That was a personal matter with me.
Q: Well did you not say at that meeting, "If this publication goes on, I will have no further dealings with the company?"
A: I did at that time.
Mr. Morden: That is all.
Continued to January 9, at 2:00 p.m.
|